SPEAKER_03 0:00

What really happened to Ellen Greenberg? Will federal investigators get to the bottom of this botched investigation? Will justice be served? Welcome to the Margaret McLean Show. I'm your courtroom translator and your guide to understanding how the legal system actually works beyond the headlines. I've been making a number of videos on YouTube, so check them out at the Margaret McLean Show. Today we'll be discussing one of the most controversial death investigations in America, the case of Ellen Greenberg. Ellen was a beautiful 27-year-old first-grade teacher from Philadelphia who was living with her fiancé Sam Goldberg. They were busy planning their wedding. In fact, the save the dates had gone out. Ellen was found dead by her fiance in their apartment on January 26, 2011. She suffered 23 stab wounds, including wounds to the back of her neck. That ruling has been fiercely challenged by her parents, Josh and Sandy Greenberg, for more than 14 years. Over that period, this case has generated national attention and intense debate. Questions have been raised about the shoddy police investigation, the number and location of Ellen's wounds, bruises on her body that were in various stages of healing, the handling of the crime scene, the suspicious removal of personal items from the apartment, and the strange decision to change the manner of death from homicide to suicide. This does not add up. And an important factor for me is that forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht and forensic neuropathologist Dr. Wayne Ross, both highly qualified independent experts, concluded that Ellen's fatal stab wounds were not self-inflicted. In fact, some were inflicted around the time of death or post-mortem. That raises a question in my mind. How could she stab herself after she died? I'd say that's impossible. The Philadelphia police and district attorney's office formed the opinion that Ellen's death was a suicide primarily because she had a mental health history of anxiety and insomnia. She was also experiencing significant stress over her teaching job. They also noticed the absence of defensive injuries, which investigators interpreted as an indication that no physical struggle with an assailant had occurred. They also claimed there was no foreign DNA or evidence of a struggle involving another person. Another significant observation by police was the swing door latch. They have those things in hotel rooms, right? They swing and they lock from the inside. Ellen and Sam lived on the sixth floor of an apartment building. No one broke into a window and there was no balcony or fire escape out there. Sam was allegedly trying to get into the apartment, but the swing latch was locked from the inside. After numerous attempts to contact Ellen because he wanted to get in, he kicked open the door from the outside and then found her. She was pronounced dead at the scene when EMTs came. In the beginning, that fact with the swing door latch made me wonder as well. But having explored this case, I have questions. And that suicide classification remains a subject of significant legal dispute by independent experts and the Greenberg family. The Philadelphia medical examiner, after a closed door meeting, reaffirmed the suicide determination. So basically, that examiner went from it's a homicide, then he was convinced it was a suicide, but then later on, after learning more about the case, he came out and said he thought it was a homicide or at least undetermined. Now the case has entered a new phase. The FBI and the United States Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania have officially opened an investigation into the handling of Ellen's death. Federal authorities have requested records and information from local agencies as they examine whether there was misconduct, corruption, improper influence, or other systemic failures surrounding that original investigation. These federal investigators are not reopening a homicide investigation. They're examining whether the institutions responsible for investigating Ellen's death acted appropriately and whether decisions were made that undermined the integrity of the process. In this episode, you'll hear my conversation with Ellen's parents, Josh and Sandy Greenberg. We'll discuss why they believe the original investigation failed, what concerns them most about the evidence, why they have continued fighting for answers for more than a decade, and what they hope federal investigators will uncover as they take a fresh look at the circumstances surrounding their daughter's death. This case raises difficult questions. Not only about what happened to Ellen Greenberg, but about public confidence in the systems that we rely upon to investigate suspicious deaths. So let's get to it.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Ellen was so much fun. She had a fabulous laugh. She loved people, she loved her family. She was just like a very big bright light. And you know, everyone loved being around her.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

She set up and she retooled her life completely to be in Philadelphia. Originally she was in DC and it didn't work out. So she had to decide whether to stick it out and be miserable or do something she wanted to do. And Ellen decided. And I I don't I didn't force her into it or I didn't even uh encourage her to do it. I just knew it was the right thing that she was doing. She changed her life. She went to Philadelphia, she started over, she started a career that she loved. She loved those little children, and they loved her. And it was so touching to actually see that, especially in this day and age with where things are not as good as they once were. And Ellen did the extra things to make her class special. It was just a tremendous thing to see.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

And what are some of the extra things she did?

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Oh, there was a problem where the children had to go home early or something. She called every child's home to make sure they got home.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

And she also was able to communicate in Spanish with a lot of the parents. They were Hispanic, a lot of them, which I had I didn't even know she knew that much Spanish.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

I'm going to tell you an anecdote. When Ellen went to Pan Philadelphia, she knew nothing. She didn't know any of the streets, any of the areas, any where anything was. And they had what I'm going to call a cattle call for teachers. All the teachers who didn't have jobs went there. And Ellen, she made contacts on her phone who she was going to ask about areas that she should, you know, look into where schools were better or worse or whatever. And she ended up at uh what school was it?

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Juliana Park Academy.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Juliana Park Academy and a lousy, what we call a lousy neighborhood. She had all these first graders there were, I think.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Yes, she made that classroom look like a first class private school.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Right. When Ellen passed, there were so many children that called up or sent us notes or did something to recognize Ellen. Ellen had a special knack that she could take different people and make them into a cohesive group for entertainment and getting along. And as she said to Sandy, I just make them do it.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

She says, Mom, I make them be friends.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

I'm like, we gotta do that.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Ellen Ellen had found her niche. Nice was this was teaching, and she did everything on her own to graduate from college and then to get a teaching certificate and the necessary credentials.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

That's amazing. Ken, I'm so sorry. When you first learned that Ellen had died, what were you told? I don't even remember.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Neither do I.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

The world went black, like the black curtain went down.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

The communication from the city of Philadelphia was piss poor, to say the least. They never called us about anything, they never interviewed about us about anything, they never brought us to face to face with the people who were investigating the case to discuss things about Ellen. Everything that we did, we developed our case, we did ourselves, and with our money and our resources. The city of Philadelphia let Ellen down.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Yeah, I agree with you there.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

And we're not even saying who did who did the murder. If you go through all the records, you'll see that we never pointed a finger at anybody. We just wanted to get to the truth and have justice for Ellen. Like you said at the beginning.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

At what point did you begin to feel that the official explanation did not align with the evidence of the city?

SPEAKER_01 10:00

We got a report from a forensic pathologist. I don't know what you want to call it. Who was it? Cyril Wecht. Now, Cyril Wecht was a foremost expert in any type of things like this. He was very instrumental in reviewing the Kennedy assassination. This boy was big time. And when he said suspicion of homicide, that sort of turned everything around. And then we met Tom Brennan. Well, I wish he was here. Tom Brennan was a cop. He was a street cop. Through our investigation and our proceedings, we had a cop, and then we had people who were well, I would say clean and wore suits and ties. So we had both worlds. And I think that gave us a perspective and uh information that we wouldn't have normally got.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Tom did he was part of the Pennsylvania State Police for many, many years, and he did special projects at Quantico and he worked in Philadelphia. What struck you about what Tom came up with?

SPEAKER_03 11:06

What what did he say about this case?

SPEAKER_02 11:08

He said it's gonna take a very long time, and we will get there is his motto.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

And he's but he kept stressing that this was gonna be a long so I figured okay, a long time, a couple years. Nope.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Well, 15 plus years later, we're still here.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

Yeah, since 2011.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

There's no gray area here. This is just a very it's an embarrassment to this Philadelphia. And I feel bad for the people that have to live under that those guidelines. Right. It's not like it is on TV.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

No, I'm looking at it as a former prosecutor. You've got other eyes on this case where it just doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

The medical examiner's office hired a special investigator to review some evidence they had, which was tissue from Ellen's spine.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Brain stem.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

And she came up with a contrary conclusion that Ellen had been murdered. She not that, but that this was these were postmortem wounds. So she goes to the medical examiner, Dr.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Lindsay Emery.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

So she goes to the medical examiner, Sam Galino, and he tells her not to put it in the report.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Not to write a report.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

We didn't know about this for two years until she was deposed. We couldn't believe that she didn't, you know, they they talk about criminal stuff. To me, this was criminal. She didn't live up to her medical legal her medical legal responsibilities that this report should have been added to the autopsy report. That's what sticks in my mind. That okay, I'll go another way. You talked about how they flip-flopped on the conclusion death, uh, homicide or suicide. Well, that was all decided at a meeting which was never recorded, which we don't know exactly who was there, and there's no evidence of.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

In other words, the examiner was there.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

We don't know, we don't know everybody's office and Pontario. We don't know exactly who was there, what they said, and what evidence they went through. But they came to the conclusion that this was a suicide, not a homicide. Those two things stick out to me like the sore thumbs. I got another one. If you think of the wounds that those 20 wounds that Ellen had that became 23 with the new medical examiner, yeah. How many were deep enough to kill somebody? Think about how shallow they were.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

They were too shallow to be uh lethal. I think that that all those wounds were the cover-up. And we just chased around those wounds like dogs chasing their tails. Think about it. They were so shallow, and Ellen had other bruises on her body at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

She had neck bruises, she had a fingernail mark in the strap muscles of her neck.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

She had the the the wounds to the back of her head went into her brain. The chest wound, which doesn't make any sense because it's on the left side with a left hand on it, right-handed, was five inches th deep, I think, or more. And that's what Sam didn't recognize. The five-inch handle on the knife that was still protruding from Ellen's chest.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

That's so odd that he he didn't see that right away.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

He's bending over her, taking open her chest clothes, and he doesn't see the stinking knife sticking out of her chest. Come on.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

That never made sense to me. Plus, how can you stab yourself after you're already gone if you do pass?

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Well, that's another question because some of the wounds were post-mortem, according to Lindsay Emery's investigation. And everybody who was involved. Okay, here's another one. Everyone who's involved in this investigation is gone.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

And they're collecting pensions from this from the city of Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

They're working in Ohio. They're not in Philadelphia, they're gone. The medical head medical examiner, what's his name?

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Marlon Osborne.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Gone.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Sam Galino. Gone. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Gone. They're all gone. And the new medical examiner is actually, in my opinion, worse than the old one. Because she wrote a 30-page report on Ellen's death saying this was a suicide. And she didn't even talk to Ellen's psychiatrist.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

And I I noticed that the psychiatrist said that she had no suicidal ideations.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Right. So we did a podcast with Dr. Phil.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

He told us about suicides. They clean up before they go on, they close their accounts, they do this, they do that. They do things that you would do at the end of your life if you were dying.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

And if Ellen was ending her life, why did she stop in a snowstorm to fill top off her tank, which was almost empty, if she was planning on exiting this universe?

SPEAKER_01 16:09

We have put together a list of things that involve the investigation, Sam and his family, and this is what something we'd like to do. If you give with me a few minutes, it might be insightful to listen to what we came up with.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

I would like to listen to that.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Okay, here we go. We have spoken to the FBI and we acknowledge it. I can't tell you what we said because that's not allowed. But they did issue subpoenas. It's more than just they're sitting around doing that. They issued subpoenas. We didn't get a subpoena and we haven't met with them yet. We want to thank them for everything they're doing. It was just so much. Now, Sam and his family, why did he all of his his things when he was outside the door? Was he so angry at Ellen? How did he get into the apartment without damaging the inner lock? In other words, there was a swing like a hotel swing lock, not a latch lock or a bolt. Why wasn't it damaged when he got into the house, into the apartment? He normally you'd have to break it somehow. It wasn't broken. In fact, the screws were still in the wall. Why did he tell the 911 opera she was on her back when she was sitting upright in the kitchen when she was found by him, supposedly, and the press? Why did he wait so long to go into the apartment? What was he doing in the in the re foyer out there? Who's he talking to on the phone? He made a number of phone calls. We have asked Sam and his family to respond to these questions and help us fill in the blank, so to speak. Nothing. They have not cooperated. He did nothing after her death. He called Sandy, but he never did anything. And he went on his merry Louis. And we can't understand that. If they loved each other so much, even if he married somebody else, things that happen in life. No, this is our only child. If anyone anywhere has any information on this that is legitimate, we would really like to have it. We would have this could help us fill in the blanks and go on. Because we would like to go on. We want to take care of our daughter first, but we want to go on also with our lives.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

We have a Facebook page called Justice for Ellen.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

We had 176,000 people signatures go online saying that this case should be reopened. Good. The city of Philadelphia has not done nothing for this citizen of Philadelphia. Not Sandy and I. Ellen was a citizen of Philadelphia. She paid taxes to the city of Philadelphia. She paid fees to be a teacher, probably, in the city of Philadelphia. They haven't done anything.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Such a miscarriage of justice.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

We just want justice for our daughter. What really happened? And if this is the way it is, if this is the justice, and you can prove it to me, great. But you can't prove it to me today. I think so much of this is bogus. I mean, I can't believe that I for so long thought that those 20 stairbounds were important. It wasn't until somebody asked me to think about Ellen's last minutes or last hours or whatever that I looked at those stair bounds. They wouldn't even hurt. But she had wounds that did, wounds that went into her skull, but from a direction and an and and an attitude that was impossible for her to do.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

The wounds coming from a down to up. You can't do that to yourself.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

At an angle.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

They don't investigate suicides. Suicides are the way to cover up homicide. You can make it look like a suicide. You'll go home scot-free, like somebody did in this case, we feel.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

I'm curious as to why Sam Goldberg's uncle, who's an attorney, went in and grabbed her what, laptop and all those things?

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Which all the laps.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

He took her handbag, the keys to her car.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

But he also took Sam's stuff, which is even maybe even be more important than Ellen's stuff. He took possible evidence out of that apartment. The police hadn't even done their investigation, and the apartment was was swept clean. The manager of the apartment took pictures of the apartment before the cleanup. Where? The police took her camera and they can't find it. The people, the the uh people who clean the apartment who take pictures before they clean it, because they know it's gonna be evidence, they can't find their pictures either. What happened?

SPEAKER_02 20:43

And the building's surveillance is that was offered to us by the police is a very limited window.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Two hours.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Which if they don't have anything to hide and this was a suicide, then show us everything.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

And they they said they didn't have it, they didn't have it until it finally you're a lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yeah, yeah, it took a year.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

It was only two hours. It was only two hours they found. Yeah, investigation by the federal government, but a corruption. They're looking at this if this case was corrupted, and it was. Ellen had marks on her wrists like they were from restraint. Ellen had marks on her neck that were indicative of strangulation. Ellen had bruises on her body in different stages of healing indicative of abuse. And they never even they've never touched the subject of abuse at all.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

No. No.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

And they have this new medical examiner who's worse who's absolutely incompetent, in my opinion. Her she wrote thirty pages of Babel.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Ribble.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

I don't even know why we like we got involved with her or them.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

I thought the original medical examiner Osborne, who changed his mind from verification. Yeah. And then then ultimately at the end said, Now that I have all this information, especially Sam Goldberg technically didn't tell the truth. He he he basically said the security guard as escorted him up to the apartment door when he didn't. And finally the medical examiner said, you know, at least it should be undetermined. I noticed the city settled with you guys right after that. It looks like a case that possibly the investigation just was botched from the very beginning.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

No investigation.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

A DA should have been present. That's what happens here in Massachusetts. And I did look it up, and I believe that's what happens in Philadelphia too. When you have a death, the assistant DA on call for the evening will go to the scene.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Nobody was never, interestingly enough, the EMT people, firefighters, were the first on the scene. They were never interviewed by the police. How convenient is that?

SPEAKER_03 23:08

When does that happen? Right? It's like every case I've been involved in, the detectives will get on scene. And I noticed the detectives didn't even get on scene until several hours later.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

Usually those people, first responders, are interviewed. What did they see? You know, did they talk to Sam?

SPEAKER_01 23:29

The only thing we know about first responders, I believe, and Sadie'll correct me, I'm sure, is they one of them came downstairs and went to the front desk and said, You have a homicide up there.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Quote unquote.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

And who was that? We don't have a name, do we?

SPEAKER_01 23:46

No, I don't, I don't, I don't have a name.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

Yeah, I don't think they want nobody interviewed that person.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Uh there is an interview okay on the internet. Um the fireman, and he did go on.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

And it was there somebody else who also said pretty much the same thing, or are we talking about the same guy?

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Same guy. There's only one person we know. And this person that Brian Entman of News Nation interviewed was very experienced. You know, some of these people become like uh law enforcement, they've been doing this for so many years, right? And he had some problems with the whole thing, also.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

He was a nice gentleman, but yeah, and but he again investigation, right? He wasn't interviewed by the police. DAs who were supposed to be at the scene should be investigating these cases with an open mind. So, you know, what are you gonna do? Give high immunity suit to an important crucial witness. That's not right.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

We deserve well that that that investigator who was brought in to review the the they didn't like that finding.

SPEAKER_03 24:54

That's why I noticed there's so many documents, and I thought it was great because that forced depositions. Now we have more evidence. I'm hoping that the federal government will do what it's supposed to do and really look at all the whatever reports they have or lack thereof, look at the different different experts that you hired, because there's something wrong with this case, in my opinion, especially when you have experts that say, you know, some of these wounds were put post-mortem. I mean, that tells you a lot right there.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

That's scary.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

It's very scary. So I'm hoping that there is a balance of what they can do is bring public corruption charges. So I think this is something they really need to do and really need to look at.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

We'll see. The subpoenas are out. Good.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

How long how much how long do you think the FBI and the US Attorney's Office have to look at this before they can make some kind of a conclusion?

SPEAKER_03 25:54

It can take a long time. I mean, it can take up to a year, maybe longer, that the public demands answers. I think you demand need answers. So it I know they have a lot of other cases that they're looking at, at least that's what they'll say.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Scientifically, nine people were three, three of everything. Three detectives, three this, three that.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

They wanted to introduce themselves to us.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

That gives me hope that at least they're gonna have they've assigned this many people to it, so they are taking it seriously.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

There was in groups of threes, they all had different professional skills skill.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

They have her journal, they have her boots, they have her glasses. Why if it's a suicide? Do they need to hold on to property that doesn't belong to them?

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Her possessions, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:44

There's no note, nothing. And you had a conversation with her or text message with her earlier that day, and everything seemed fine, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Sandra, she was on her way to school, yeah, and we were I was um going over things to look for to retain to send to our accountant. It was a very logical, normal conversation.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

She did not have depression, she had anxiety. You have anxiety, you don't commit suicide.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

No, and again, going back to the expert, there was no suicidal ideation. I think they're covering their tracks, and I can say that. Well, you have a lot of experience under your belt, experience as a prosecutor and dealing with you know victims and mental health, but I I also have a very close, very close friend who suffers from mental health issues and and anxiety. There's a big difference between anxiety and depression.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:43

Huge. So I know that from my own experience outside of the law.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

So well, I'm sorry to hear that by the way.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

They never looked at the bruises and the which are significant of abuse. Nothing was ever discussed. Yep, she's got it, she's got bruises. She got that's all that was in the autopsy, like that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 28:06

But they bruises in various stages of healing, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:09

They never investigated that. And that had to be administered by somebody who was intimate.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Yeah. Well, I'd love to have you back on. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

We cannot thank the media enough because that's what kept us going.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Yeah. And for all of you out there, thank you for listening to the Margaret McLean show.