SPEAKER_00 0:00

Warning signs or red flags, like what would you look for?

SPEAKER_01 0:04

That's a layer of that level of accountability. I think people eventually, over time, their character shows who they are. They're either a stand-up person or they're not. And if they're not, I've got to believe that if you're paying attention, they're really going to show you their true selves. The nature of law enforcement, you come across people in their worst moments. And you have an opportunity. Not that you have to go out of your way to help someone, but you don't have to go out of your way to hurt someone either. And it just seems that in the Karen Reed case, they closed off every other scenario, and they were dead set against Karen Reed, in that she indeed was going to be the one that they were going to bring prosecution. Hell or high water, she was going to be the one that they were going to bring prosecution against.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

And that shows investigator bias.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

100%. Uh it shows that investigative bias, which again was one of the charges held against Procter in this termination in this trial board for bias policing. That's also in our rules and regulations. You just can't do it, there's no room for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Right. So one allegation in the lawsuit is that this reflects a broader culture. How do you distinguish between individual misconduct and institutional culture? And do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Well, I I don't I don't agree with it from the perspective of I know hundreds of men and women still within the state police that do the right thing, that put on the uniform, and they come to work, and they would never ever find themselves in this predicament. But that being said, you have to investigate it. You have to peel back the layers and you have to look under those layers and see where else does it exist? Does it exist exclusively with Michael Proctor? I'm not naive to say that. There are others, again, we're talking with human nature. There are others within the department that this needs to be uncovered. But again, is it systemic? Don't I don't believe so.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

And I don't mean to pick on the state police because obviously Sean Goods from the Canton Police Department, as a citizen of Massachusetts, it makes you think I did not see this when I was a prosecutor. I have many, many police officers who I've come in contact with, I'm friends with. I was just shocked. What message should department leaders be sending out right now? And I know you talked about Colonel Noble, but what about across the state? Should other police departments be sending out messages as well?

SPEAKER_01 2:36

It would behoove other agencies in the Commonwealth to be able to learn from the shortcomings of the state police, things that were not addressed. Take the high road, get out in front of this, address your supervisors, have them tune their ear, sharpen their lens to be able to pick up on these types of unwanted uh conduct. And your department is going to be that much more professional. And let's be honest, save yourself the embarrassment.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Yeah. So I used to teach at a law at Boston College, and one of the sections was ethics. And I always refer to the front page of the newspaper test. Is it ethical behavior? Well, you don't want to picture yourself on the front page of the newspaper someday.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

That's right where it's going to end up. And once you're there, how do you save face? Once you're there with those headlines, that's that's a difficult, difficult story to try to massage or to lend yourself back favorable in the public eye. Very, very difficult.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Now, should departments revisit training and supervision policies, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Yeah, I think you're going to see that, Margaret. I think you're going to see additional training and if nothing else, for liability protection that as a result of a high-profile case like this, the agency took these steps and these measures to be more professional. So yeah, I think by default you're going to see uh new training standards come out for for frontline officers as well as supervisors.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

And where do you think the story goes next?

SPEAKER_01 4:08

I I don't think we've heard at all. I think if if I had to be a betting man, Alan Jackson has some more fodder in his sleeve and he's he's gonna load up that cannon, you're gonna hear more things come out above and beyond what was put in the complaint.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Do you think they should have made him show up for the deposition? And we're talking about Proctor's deposition was scheduled for this past Monday, and on Friday, his attorney notified the other side that he couldn't do it because we don't know why, but we're guessing it's some sort of mental health issue.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Hard to say. We may not like you know who the players are, but if there's a legitimate reason, then then so be it. They're gonna use what and leverage whatever they can. Strings back in your in your favor, then that's that's what happens. You know better than I in the courtroom how those types of things may play out.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

I see a lot of strategy going on here. Is there anything else you'd like to add on Karen Reed?

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Well, you know, as far as the Karen Reed trial, there's a lot more that we'll come to discover. You know, also keep in mind you've got the the different restaurants that are in the the these lawsuits as well. We'll probably hear more from their attorneys. How many other individuals are going to be deposed? You know, you you've you've got the family members in Canton there that are probably going to be pulled into a deposition. You've got Higgins, the ATF agent. A lot of these people did not get pulled into the second trial to testify. But I think here in the deposition phase of this, these new lawsuits, I think you can see a lot of old names resurface to testify.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Oh, yeah. Yeah, we have four lawsuits going on, which I discussed in the previous show. But what about criminal culpability as far as Proctor and possibly good? Do you see criminal charges down the road and maybe on the federal level, obstruction of justice, anything like that?

SPEAKER_01 6:00

I see I don't think the feds are gone. Uh, we know that it was because of the federal investigation that really highlighted the use of the cell phone and that there was some damaging content that was there. I've said all along that you might see violations of Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment. Illegal seizure, Karen Reed, an illegal arrest. You may see um, you know, due process challenges by her attorneys uh in the 14th Amendment. And and so I I think I think that is federal level of prosecution is not too far remotely removed from this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Right. And I just talking to people this weekend, the biggest question I people asked me was he should be in jail. People were just so offended by the text messages.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yeah, and it would have to come on the federal level. It it's it's again, it's unfortunate, but the accountability happens within the agency. He wasn't suspended as a final disposition, he was suspended and then terminated. And so, and and people, and I want to set this for the record straight for your viewers, uh, Margaret, uh, Proctor is not getting a pension. Um the the law says that a a Massachusetts state trooper must complete 20 years of service before they're eligible. He did not have 20 years of service. So there is nowhere within the the the state system that he would be able to collect the pension now or into the future. Whether he was whether he was terminated, whether he was arrested, uh still uh served jail time period the end, he is not drawing from the pension system as a as a civilian now.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

That's good to know. If I were him, I'd leave the country.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

It's it's he's dug himself in quite the hole. And um, you know, again, we'll we'll see how all this plays out, but not a not an envious position to be in.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

I also wanted to briefly talk to you about people who are interested in uh the crash that Netflix show. Uh McKenzie Sherilla case. So what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Yeah, I I initially, you know, thinking about the charge of murder. Well, first of all, I thought the documentary was was was well done. Such a sad story for the two young men, the boyfriend Dominic and the good friend Davion uh that were killed in that incident. Looking through that case through Massachusetts law, I thought initially she may have been overcharged. And I thought maybe manslaughter would have been a more appropriate charge. It's it's an Ohio, it's an Ohio case, and it happened with different rules and different legal analysis being applied. So again, the prosecutor felt uh extremely confident in in those charges that were brought against her and ultimately uh was able to secure uh a guilty, a guilty uh verdict against uh McKenzie. But again, I thought proving intent would have been a challenge in this particular case. I thought that she lived her life in that social media world. And if you if you also looked at the parents, uh the parents allowed her to live a life without consequences. And I think that really helped shape the personality that she was and and that sense of entitlement, if you will, drug abuse um that was, you know, between the the weed and between you know the psychedelics, that had to be a factor. Um, I'm not a psychologist, but or or you know, medical professional, but I can only help that the amount of drugs that she was doing lended some something unfavorable to her.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Yeah, and I think the amount of drugs over time is what did it too, because we were talking earlier about uh marijuana being so strong, it's different than the marijuana 20 years ago. So and that stays in your system. I believe if if there's a drug test, right, it stays in the system a month and a half or something.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Yeah, I think you know, as we were talking offline, the weed that was around, you know, back when I was growing up, I think it's a completely different product today. Uh vaping wasn't around. And I think the product that's on the market today that's been legalized is mostly chemical. And uh I'm confident someone's gonna do a study, if it hasn't been done already, on the on the dangers um to the human brain, especially to your earlier point, Margaret, about drug abuse early in one's age and also the amount of what a person partakes in.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Exactly. And uh, you know, there were no consequences for her. And I think it does impact the judgment of a young mind that between the psychedelics and the weed, to the point where in social media, that's a problem too. Constantly posting, look at me, look at me. So very narcissistic behavior, which I think ultimately led to that crash, which is just uh stunningly sad. And you know, talk about overcharging. I do agree with you. And I think that that is an issue with DA's office. Like, look at Karen Reed. I always thought she was overcharged and should not have been charged with second degree murder, but maybe voluntary manslaughter or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Yeah, you know, that that and that's a layer. You know, I always, from a law enforcement perspective, any investigation, it it starts with good policing out in the field post-incident, and then whatever evidence has been identified and logged and brought to court or and brought to uh brought in as evidence, you know, it all starts in the field. And you know, the the prosecution is only as good as the law enforcement investigation. So, you know, in all of these different matters, whether it's the the the trial of of Karen Reed, you know, around John O'Keefe's murder, or you know, something like this, where we see really a young teenager out of control and and ends up being so reckless, kills two very close dear friends of hers.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah, and that certainly was reckless. She was she had her foot on the pedal, she was going 100 miles an hour, 110, and four in the morning straight into a brick wall, which I'm surprised she didn't kill herself, too. Maybe that was the intent to kill all three of them.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

I don't think her that underdeveloped brain, in never having would appear to be having a sense of consequences in her life. I don't think she could differentiate between a 35 mile an hour collision or a hundred mile an hour collision. Um, her her undeveloped brain just didn't get her to the other side of of that scenario. And so whatever was gonna happen was gonna happen. I'm gonna get my way. And, you know, hella high water. Um, my boyfriend's gonna once again follow my way, follow the things that I want, you know, cave into my demands. Um but again, just just extremely reckless.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Extremely reckless and selfish and uh very sad, and it's very sad looking at the families. But I I still feel that the parents of the girl McKenzie are in denial to this day. They still don't think she's culpable.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Towards the end, I thought it was extremely interesting how when Mackenzie's mother came before the court to speak whatever she was going to speak and make a statement, the judge cut her off and said, you know, I'm not hearing anything about the victims, I'm only hearing, right? I mean, she the judge cut her right off. Yeah, and so again, you just show you to your point, you could hear how the mother was again creating excuses that was it Potts diagnosis? That's not even appropriate, you know. So watching that documentary, it was if they were trying to throw anything against the wall that was gonna fit, it it didn't work.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

No, definitely not. And you know, I thought that was an interesting decision. They chose a judge trial, a bench trial instead of a jury. Do you think it would have been different in front of a jury?

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Great question. I really believe a jury probably would have, if not found, and again, I don't know Ohio law, but yeah, if they didn't find her guilty on the murder, then maybe a lesser included charge. But I think they would have found her guilty of something.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yeah, prosecution did a good job playing the Instagram and all the social media stuff that she had out there, and it just made her look so bad. There's nothing likable about that.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

No, she uh she was not a uh a likable uh defendant. And even post incident, her behavior, what was there was the name of her group that she was following, very dark. Oh, yeah. Like you you couldn't choose another entertainer or influencer to get behind. Just again, it was if she she hadn't matured from such a traumatic incident and just wanted to continue living that narcissistic narcissistic life.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Yeah, and now of course, online there's a big push free, just like free Karen Reed, free McKenzie. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yeah, you know, you you're gonna and we can we can add uh Luigi Mangion to that as well, right, Margaret? Yeah, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Well, yeah, we can. We can yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

It's just again, you're gonna have a segment of the population that is gonna side, you know, with with people that have caught up in the criminal justice system, one reason or another. It's it's um it's incredible. It's it's absolutely incredible to see these things play out.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

I know. Do you think cameras should be in the courtroom?

SPEAKER_01 15:34

I I do. I I really believe that these trials are are part of the public good, part of the public interest. We we saw in the Karen Reid trial the turnout at at each each court day, and you have to manage it. But I I think that when you have such a tremendous incident happen in your community, that's uh I think it's Storiesville, Ohio. Um Mackenzie Sherillo, this incident happened. Um it's a community of about 45,000. So it's a it's a middle mid-size uh city. And um, but the police department's only about 70 police officers. It's it's middle town, middle city, USA. Those communities, they they have a vested interest in wanting to know what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

That's a good way of looking at it. I go both ways. Sometimes you think, is it too much of a media circus?

SPEAKER_01 16:21

What I like is that you're seeing it directly the way it played out, and you're not getting a spin, you're not getting, you know, um maybe a network's perspective or slant. Maybe for one reason or another, they don't they don't like the defendant, um, or they don't they don't like the way the nature of the story played itself out. So I I just like that that very transparent perspective.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

We have legal analysis, and it's interesting to hear, for example, I enjoyed watching what you had to say on Canton Confidential, the various stations. So it makes you think twice about the law and perhaps learn something as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yes. Um, you know, you you mentioned earlier having uh Mojetta on your your channel as well as uh Peter Eloquin, both terrific lawyers, they both are are professional, they're both practitioners. When they provide their analysis, it's coming from a place of experience. And it's coming from a real place of, you know, this is what I would do, or this is what happened in a previous case. They've got such tremendous experience that they can they can share that with lay people that don't understand how the court system works or or how the legalese of things work in the in a trial that that people can take away uh as they watch these different your channel and other podcasters.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Thank you very much. I don't want to take any more of your time. You've been very enlightening too, so I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Margaret, thank you for thank you for the invite. It was a pleasure. And um, you know, as these stories develop, they're not gonna go away as we we we see at least in the the Karen Reed uh saga. Um so happy to come back on and share some more of my thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Oh, thank you so much, and you're so articulate, so I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Well, have a great night, and everybody out there, thank you for watching the Margaret McLean show.